这些数字游牧民族如何开展 100% 远程业务

Felix：今天，来自 Minaal.com 的 Doug Barber 以 MINAAL.com 的身份加入了我的行列。 Minaal 生产这种耐用的专业旅行装备，可让您到达您想去的地方，更快、更快乐、更有效率，它于 2013 年开始，是一家完全偏远的企业。 欢迎道格。

道格：你好菲利克斯，很高兴来到这里。

菲利克斯：很高兴有你加入，所以请告诉我们更多关于你的商店的信息，以及你携带的一些受欢迎的产品。

道格：我猜几年前，我们发现了市场上的一个缺口，一种质量非常好的破烂旅行装备，你也可以把它带到专业环境中。 对于那些想要......早上他们可能不得不向董事会展示的人，他们想要带上同样的装备并爬上火山或其他东西，他们想要轻装上阵。 这就是我们关注的市场上的东西。

Felix：你在市场上发现了这个差距，这是基于个人经验吗？你是怎么偶然发现的……我明白你在说这个市场上的差距，你找不到同样适用于专业设置，也适合日常出行。

道格：只是因为很多旅行。 我和我的联合创始人我们进行了交流，我们认识是因为我们进行了交流，多年前在加拿大温哥华上大学。 那是......我们都非常痴迷于旅行，我的意思是可能在那之前，但这真的让它进入了齿轮。 从那时起处理这些袋子和质量，最后对那里的东西感到非常沮丧。 尽管我们在这个行业没有经验，但我们只是想自己做一些有用的东西。

Felix：很酷，你说你没有这个行业的经验，但这是你第一次创业，还是你过去尝试过创业或推出产品？

道格：是的，我认为这是第一个严肃的。 这一切都在 Minaal 之下，我们确实在一般旅行领域尝试了一些其他产品，而制造商更多地放弃我们只是因为我们的……甚至在那时，我们有一些非常荒谬的标准需要他们制定对他们中的许多人来说，这太难了，那时我们……到那时，我们已经对制作一个真正高质量的背包充满热情，我们很快就得到了一些牵引力，找到了一个非常了不起的制造商，事情进展得很快从那里为我们。

菲利克斯：你提到这是你的第一笔严肃的生意。 这是……有一个认真起飞的第一个，或者你认真投入或承诺的第一个，以更强烈的方式。 是什么让这对你来说更重要？

道格：介于两者之间，我认为我们俩在此之前所做的任何事情都是创业的。 它非常大，所以我会说它基本上是第一个……我们坚持相同的主题。 我想你几乎可以说我们多年来一直在转型，那是……我们一直打算制作背包，但那是……我们一直认为这可能是一个更高级的阶段。 当其他服装产品不适合我们时，这就是我们推出的产品，所以它最终成为我们的第一部分，现在我们在背包方面有足够的新产品做在接下来的一段时间里……在我们进入其他任何事情之前可能还需要一段时间。

Felix：我认为这是很多企业家经历的一个阶段，他们……想要开展业务，他们经历了不同的阶段，拥有不同的产品、不同的想法。 然后他们会发现一个有更多吸引力的东西，或者它对他们有帮助，或者关于特定产品或特定想法的东西，他们只是倾向于。 你的情况是怎样的？ 是什么让这个特别，特别是背包，是什么让那个成功？ 是什么让你们决定全力以赴？

道格：我认为这只是人们的普遍反应。 我们有一种非常强烈的预感，即这在早期有很大的潜力。 从制作我们的第一个原型到进行那种改变，到我们的旅行体验，然后我们从人们那里得到了评论。 这是一个早期的原型，这是第一个。 从那时起我们已经走了很长一段路，但即使是早期的那个，人们还是非常兴奋，并且在那个阶段愿意向我们扔钱。 我们在那里有一些非常强的牌，我们可能一直在做一件好事。

菲利克斯：我以前从其他创业者那里听说过……你们显然是有意创业的，但是很多创业者在为自己创造一些东西时无意中创业，突然间每个人都在问他们我在哪里可以做买那个？ 我可以从你那里买吗，你在卖这些，不管是什么产品。 是那种情况，人们会亲自来找你询问你的旅行装备，还是你们有某种在线方式来收集这些反馈？

道格：不，这都是非常亲身的。 那时我认为我们有一个……我不确定我们在什么时候设置了一个登陆页面，但即使这样也很基本，并且没有关于包的很多细节。 这很大程度上是对人们的面对面反应，因为我们当然是在各地旅行，他们每天与其他人有很多互动。 只是反应非常积极。

Felix：是的，你能够客观地看待它真是太好了，因为你过去推出了其他产品，我认为每当我们自己推出一些东西时，都有两条潜在的路径。 您可能会以极度挑剔的方式走下去，从不认为它足够好或从不喜欢它，或者您从玫瑰色的有色眼镜戴上看它的另一条路。 你只听好的反馈，你不听不好的反馈，你倾向于过度夸大特定产品的潜在成功，你是否能够……你如何看待你的业务，或者看看你的您客观地发布的产品是为了知道这是与服装或你们以前试图销售的任何产品相比的产品？ 您怎么没想到，即使您没有得到相同类型的反馈，也可能有人对此感兴趣？

道格：我们之前做过的任何东西都是最近小规模的，所以就像我们正在做的这些东西只是发送给更好的客户，实际上人们对此非常满意。 我想如果不是制造商无法按照我们预期的标准生产，我们可能会继续这样做。 在反馈方面，我们周围总是有人会直截了当地告诉我们他们的想法，我认为这非常重要。 您的任何早期反馈，我们都得到了一些强烈而批判性的反馈，我认为您有点……这是一项很好的技能，学习能够将所有内容都接受而不试图解释它，因为它很容易接受个人在船上的东西并受到伤害。 我想如果你只是，不管反馈是什么，只要你听到它，把所有的东西都写下来。 只要求基督徒澄清它，然后把它全部拿走并进行处理。 这对我们来说很有效。

Felix：我喜欢你说的只提出问题来澄清而不是试图解释它或试图说服给你反馈的人，相信你想让他们相信的东西，重要的技能。 您现在已经多次提到这些制造商的工作。 你们有特定的标准，听起来像非常高的标准，或者至少可能产品上有一些技术，你想确保这些制造商能够生产。 告诉我们你的经历，什么...... 也许我们将从您尝试推出以前的产品的第一次体验开始。 它们是什么，您遇到了哪些制造商问题？

Doug：如果我们谈论的是服装方面，那就是我们……我们所做的几乎所有事情，似乎都与其他企业的做法不同。 这一直是一场斗争，而在当时，同样需要很长时间才能向制造商解释我们希望他们这样做的方式。 它需要改变他们的流程。 我能理解为什么他们会在一段时间后退出，因为我们要求很高。 这当然没有改变，但在背包方面，我们花了……在服装产品进行的同时，我们正在寻找世界各地的背包制造商，因为我们当时一直在草拟我们的计划，这是我们认为的我们最终会做到的。

我们花了 2 年时间找到合适的制造商，我们有很多需要勾选的盒子、效果和环境问题以及质量，我们希望与我们也喜欢与之合作的人合作。 花了很长时间和全球搜索才能找到合适的地方。 一旦我们选择了那家工厂，我们就一直与他们合作直到今天。

菲利克斯：有趣的是，您回顾自己的业务并看到您为取得今天的成就所采取的垫脚石。 是那个意图吗，是故意从服装开始，然后转向背包，因为我听到这听起来像你在说，你总是有最终生产背包的目标。 为什么要沿途采取这些步骤，而不是直接去买背包。

道格：我们一直认为最终它们将成为该品牌下的产品生态系统，但最初是作为游客四处旅行。 我们俩都接触过服装方面的东西。 我们认为这是一个不太复杂的产品。 我认为仍然是这样，当我们在学习的时候……在制造业显然有很多东西要学，对这两种产品都很重要的纺织品，高端背包是一个相当复杂的领域。 我想我们不觉得我们可以立即启动。

菲利克斯：我认为这很有意义。 如果您有多种产品的最终目标，并且我认为您说过要在该品牌下创建产品的生态系统，您有什么意见吗，您是否对这种使命感到不知所措，因为我认为很多时候企业家们在起点，他们正在寻找终点线，他们说他们想要这个特定品牌下的 10 种不同的产品，这对你来说就像一只压倒性的野兽来实现这个目标。 你们是如何拥有拥有一个由不同产品组成的生态系统的远大愿景的，听起来你们仍在建设中，但请确保你们不会因为自己能够完成我猜想的工作而感到不知所措每天？

道格：是的，很容易感到不知所措，我认为如果你正在尝试一些困难的事情，我认为这是不可避免的，但你必须……你必须在自己身上找到某种精神上的坚韧并坚持下去，那就是我们是如何处理它的。 在多个点上放弃是很容易的。 你只需要真正想要它，就像我们所做的那样，然后继续坚持下去。

Felix：你之前也提到过，你在制造方面遇到困难的原因之一是因为你们想做的一切都与其他业务不同。 我认为这不仅是制造业的一个重要问题，而且对于营销和品牌推广来说也是一个重要的问题。 如果你所做的每一件事都注意到你遇到了这些路障，或者这是一场艰苦的战斗，因为它与其他人的做法不同，你有没有质疑过自己，为什么不按照别人的方式去做企业正在这样做，你是如何回答这个问题的？

道格：我想我们只是看看什么……我们以另一种方式做的其他企业只是看看他们会变成什么样，然后问自己这是否是我们想要成为的样子，答案总是否定的。 是的，对我们来说，总是……虽然有时会令人沮丧，但我们总能放心。 就像，“是的，我们是不同的，这值得坚持，即使需要更多的解释和时间。 总的来说，这对我们有利，因为我们将成为一个真正独特的品牌。

Felix：我认为这是一个重要的话题，因为特别是对于想要创建的企业家来说，比如说他们想要一种特定生活方式的生活方式企业。 也许这就是你们想要的，但听起来可能更像是你们对品牌、产品本身有特殊的愿景，但假设你想走出自己的道路，基本上是你自己的道路。 您想达到其他人没有或正在考虑的某个点，其他企业对您拥有的特定目标的想法不同。 当你走这条路时，这些都是艰苦的战斗。 一路上有很多颠簸，你如何保持弹性以确保它是......就像你说的，这是值得的，但我敢肯定你有几天可能没有那种感觉.

感觉今天将是一个非常……今天感觉非常糟糕的一天，因为我们正在尝试以自己的方式做事。 你每天都做了什么，或者你是如何始终如一地确保在你们处理业务的方式上基本上没有失去希望？

道格：如果你让自己走出你所处的任何特定情况，然后你就走出了一步。 好好想想，我今天在哪里，我在世界的某个随机部分。 我可能正在解决一些难题，但随后我将步行到海边的一家非常疯狂的小餐馆，并将其与您以前在某个地方的小隔间里可能会做的事情进行比较。 我对那种隔间生活有第一手的体验。 我有一些事情要回顾和思考，不管今天有多糟糕，总的来说它比那种生活方式要好得多，无论如何对我来说。 一切都与你个人的谈话有关，这将是一些人想要的生活，但对我来说不是，即使有起起落落，我也更喜欢这种生活。

菲利克斯：这听起来像是你练习了很多感恩，确保你对你已经拥有的东西心存感激......我认为这是其中很大一部分，作为一名企业家，我们非常雄心勃勃，我们也很紧张，想要把事情做好，但这也可能是一种礼物和诅咒，因为你可能会走上一条你永远不会满足的道路，无论你在哪里，无论你取得了什么成就。 我认为重要的是你所说的是我应该知道什么对你说话，不要动摇，因为你总是会在一个你不快乐的地方，除非你坚持你......就像我说的那样给你最多。 在你的“前世”中，有没有一刻你意识到这不是我想做的，或者是随着时间的推移而积累起来的。 就像你为了确定你真正想要的是什么而经历的思考过程是什么？

道格：我想可能我什至在开始进入企业界之前就知道了，但我想可能……我不记得我的确切想法，但我想我的一部分可能看到了未来并认为这对我来说可能是有用的体验世界上很多人都在做什么，至少去做一段时间，看看它是什么样的，我很高兴我做到了。 我现在有那个基准可以回顾，这肯定有助于你所说的感恩元素。 我想我从很小的时候就一直认为企业家会是我的出路，但我仍然想拥有……我仍然想至少拥有传统的大学经历。

Felix：说到忠于自己，我想一旦你成功了，我想谈谈你的 Kickstarter 活动。 你有 2 个非常成功的 Kickstarter 活动，显然一旦发生，你会得到很多宣传。 很多人听说你，你的企业开始变得更加成功，品牌变得更大，然后突然间所有这些机会都开始出现。 合适的人会开始接触你，想和你一起工作。 他们想卖给你东西。 当这种情况发生时，更容易开始说：“我将坚守我的根，坚持我所相信的。” 当没有人试图……基本上教你或给你带来这些机会时，你很容易坚持下去，但一旦你得到曝光，突然间每个人都想和你一起工作。

想给你一个意见或想告诉你应该如何经营你的生意，但是你怎么回来呢？ 你如何确保你不被拖累？ 当有这么多机会刚刚开始出现时，其他人会与你保持一致吗？

道格：这是一个很好的问题，我只是认为我们的思想非常强烈，并且清楚地知道什么是我们，什么不是。 我想我们说不不会有太多麻烦，我们确实不得不说很多。 如果你真的很清楚你的愿景和你想要实现的目标，以及你为什么要做这一切。 如果你不断地回到那个问题上，那么通常你会得到一个非常明确的答案，即你是否会对某件事说是或否。

Felix：您和您的团队或您和您的合作伙伴必须进行正式的静坐来确定愿景吗？ 你是怎么想出来的你走错了路。 是不是你一开始就需要有一个愿景，一个可以坚持的愿景，但你怎么甚至想出一个愿景，指着它说，这就是我们所相信的？”

道格：有时你可以根据你不想要的东西来弄清楚，我敢肯定这对我们来说有一个元素，但它真的......对我们来说，这是对旅行充满热情并且真的想要做的人尽可能的。 就是这样。 我们需要做一些能让我们自由和灵活地继续旅行的事情，并且我们不会被束缚在任何一个地方并从那里建立起来。 作为联合创始人，我们坐下来……我们每季度进行一次追赶，然后每年我们都会进行一种更长期的审视，并检查我们仍在做的事情是否与我们最初的目标相匹配。 只需检查我们是否仍然在同一页面上，并且每年都是如此，我们已经赶上了。

菲利克斯：我喜欢那种弄清楚你不想要什么，然后尝试设计一种生活，或者设计一个不需要避免它的企业的方法，但不要让自己陷入那种你必须在公司工作或工作的境地。不管你不想要什么。 我认为很多听众试图走这条路，他们会遇到障碍，或者他们会遇到很难摆脱他们不知道的事情的情况想。 您是否曾经遇到过这种情况并且几乎决定回到以前的生活方式？ 有哪些时候，坚持做你真正想做的事情并不容易？

道格：我想我可能可以诚实地说，我没有理由决定我应该回去做我正在做的事情。 我想我从来没有直接问过吉米，但我怀疑他的回答会是一样的。

Felix：那么让我们谈谈背包，因为就像你之前所说的，第一线产品，服装线存在一些制造问题。 背包发生了什么变化，背包和制造它的制造商的情况如何？ 至少比服装更可行？

Doug：我认为我们正在与一家非常高端的制造商交谈，他们很早就了解我们想要实现的目标，并且一切都顺利完成。 而对于早期的服装，制造商来说都是一场真正的斗争。 从本质上讲，这是一个主要的区别，只是让一个你觉得理解你正在尝试做的事情的人，我认为这非常重要。

菲利克斯：你还记得在找到合适的制造商之前必须接触多少制造商吗？

道格：我猜是 50、60、70。

菲利克斯：你是否有一个很好的过程来接触他们，因为如果你必须与 50 或 60 家制造商交谈，然后才能开始生产这种产品。 有没有办法让它更容易？ 假设您要再次开展业务并且您必须找到制造商......您有很高的标准，是否有更好的方法可以让您利用这段时间来确保您能够在不花太多钱的情况下找到合适的制造商那个阶段的时间？

道格：我想如果我当时处于同样的境地，我认为没有什么真正好的捷径可以做到。 它只是在地面上四处走动，参观这些地方，问很多问题。 这都是了解更多行业信息的一种方式。 走的越多，每次问的问题越多，而且我想如果我现在在做的话，那么我在各个制造业都有大量的人脉，所以那里的事情会更快。 如果您什么都不知道，我认为您仍然需要……从缓慢而艰难的方式中获得很多好处。

Felix：你亲自拜访了所有这些制造商？

道格：是的。

菲利克斯：我开始思考一个很多听众脑海中都会浮现的问题，就是你是如何资助所有这一切的，整个旅程？ 你是如何辞去工作听起来像旅行并没有尝试创业的？ 你是如何为这一切提供资金的？

道格：大学毕业后，我在第一份公司工作中工作了 18 个月，然后辞职去旅行，那是公司的开始。 在这 18 个月的大部分时间里，在那里发生的大部分时间里，我有点决定，在我进去之前，我不会陷入支付高额租金、买很多东西和买昂贵食物的陷阱。 这是一个在工作的同时继续像学生一样生活的案例。 事实上，我和我的联合创始人吉米，在我们一起做生意之前，我们一起分享了这个较低级别的地方很多很多个月......有点粗暴地在那里......这是镇上最好的部分，但基本上分裂了一起地下室。

我们没有付多少房租，吃的很简单，简单的饭菜。 我想需要做出一些牺牲，但我们很高兴这样做，因为我们……我会说这是一种旅行/未来的商业基金。 您正在吃垃圾食品，但您知道自己花的钱可以用于将来真正令人兴奋的事情。 我认为这是你可以管理的

菲利克斯：当然，我认为那是我想你很早就想得非常有远见，这帮助你建立了自己没有债务或没有被困在一份薪水工作中的金手铐，并做到了这一切。 我想很多听众可能会遇到这种情况。 我想知道是否有人想做同样的事情，也许不是旅行，而是基本上辞掉工作并全职专注于建立业务，我认为这可能是一个更好的中间立场。 您还记得在整个过程中您觉得自己将用完现金的任何一点吗？ 有没有害怕这可能无法全部解决？

道格：是的，有一段时间……因为吉米和我喜欢一个人四处参观工厂，另一个人会回到新西兰工作。 我们有时会滑过去。 那是我们需要做的事情来补充一点基金，并且奏效了。 一旦我们觉得我们真的在产品方面获得了牵引力，我们就知道如果我们都全职工作，我们可以更快地推进事情，这就是我们所做的并且刚刚经历的。 当您可以将所有精力集中在某件事上时，这将产生巨大的影响。

菲利克斯：我们在通话之前谈了一点，在我们录音之前，我问你们你们住在哪里，你们说没什么特别的，你们一直在旅行。 我想谈谈这个的利弊？ 在没有实际基地的情况下开展业务是什么感觉，但您实际上只是在经营业务的同时环游世界？

道格：它肯定有它的挑战，但我想是的，也许奇怪的是，当我没有家的时候，我几乎感觉在家里旅行。 我知道这绝对不是每个人的情况，甚至可能是极少数。 这种创业精神确实让你在一定程度上设计了适合你的生活，这就是我们所取得的成就。 该业务的建立方式可以实现这一点，但如果我们中的一个或两个决定在一个地方停留一段时间，我想它也会起作用，但只是我们对旅行充满热情，只是似乎无论如何都会发生这种情况。

菲利克斯：有哪些你在刚开始时没有预料到的挑战……是在旅行中开始创业的？

道格：我想随着团队的发展，你会达到……其他人基本上也是如此。 你确实在白天的所有时间，有时在晚上开会，我猜这有时会导致问题，但不是真的。 我认为这对于由此产生的生活来说是一个很小的权衡。 我想特别是对于我们作为一家旅游公司来说，没有人可以指责我们不是旅行者。 我们都在全职做这件事。 有时你确实需要……生产力有时会受到影响，这取决于旅行的方式，但我认为我们都已经这样做了足够长的时间，现在我们仍然可以在路上做一些工作，但我们仍然给自己一些坚实的障碍时间在一个地方以及当我们身体移动时更难做的事情。

Felix：我从其他数字游民那里听到的一件事是，因为他们经常旅行，然后他们要去城市，世界上有些地方基本上只是在戏弄他们从工作模式中走出来，探索。 我遇到的最大困难之一是你提出的生产力点，当你可以出去探索你所处的新环境时，这就像适应工作模式一样困难。你如何应对当你经常出差的时候，真的能坐下来完成工作吗？

道格：我认为对我来说，我刚刚达到了一个我得到足够刺激的地步，比如在我将要工作的地点之间穿梭。 我不觉得当我到达一个新地方时，我需要去看看所有的旅游热点或类似的东西。 我很高兴在那个地方像日常生活一样生活。 出去吃饭，或者如果你需要随机挑选一些东西，比如去挑选一些电动类型的东西，或者那些你觉得更像当地人的小任务。 只是做一些常规的事情，去超市买食物之类的。

是的，对我来说，一旦你把自己当作不是游客，并且至少会成为一个理性的人，因此无论你在那里的任何时间段，即使只是一天。 它去掉了之前的“哦，我在城里待了2天，如果我看旅游指南，就会有这些事情我必须要做的事情”的元素。 一旦你克服了这一点，我认为这真的不是什么大问题。

菲利克斯：我想给自己一点时间，这就是为什么你现在被赶到一个特定的地方，这样你就不会觉得你必须出去。 你可以安顿下来，是有道理的。 对于那些正在考虑在路上开展业务或只是第一次注册业务以完全远程的人。 跟随您的脚步，在迈向经营或开始完全远程业务之前，有哪些事情需要记住或今天开始准备？

道格：我认为有很多……只是为了旅行，如果你要永远在路上，我想有很多事情可以……在整理好自己的事情方面。 家里有很多事情需要弄清楚。 所有的小事情，比如让你的银行停止向你发送实体报表，也许如果你要离开一年，在国内获得国际驾照，因为这是你一旦出国就无法获得的东西。 是的，在你走之前，你可以整理很多小东西。 我想在更广泛的业务层面上，你只需要......特别是如果我们谈论的是远程团队，你只需要一直非常擅长将事物转化为系统，并且我认为你需要提高你的沟通技巧。

作为一个远程团队，真正重要的事情本质上是所有的沟通，因为如果你在一个物理位置有一个团队，那就没那么重要了，你总是能了解人们的表现，无论他们是否在挣扎或其他什么但是……如果是偏远的地方，你往往看不到他们的脸，你不知道他们的一般风度是什么。 确保您真的非常清楚并传达他们自己的任何沟通方式非常重要。 我会说大多数人不会自然而然地做到这一点，所以这是需要努力的事情。

Felix: Let's talk about the Kickstarter Campaigns, because I think this is where your business really took off. You launched 2 campaigns, we'll talk about the first one first, the first campaign which I think was launched in 2013. Had a goal of $30,000, ended up raising 10 times that, $341,000 from over 6000 backers. Before we get to the actual campaign itself, what stage was the basis prior to launching the Kickstarter Campaigns? Did you have prototypes ready, what did you have ready or what did you have already developed before launching the campaign?

Doug: At the point we launched, we'd actually done pretty serious amount of preparation. We had gone through 13 or 14 like different duration of the bag and each one we'd take a new sample, take it out to the people nearby and let them just tell us everything they thought of it. That process I was describing before about just letting that feedback come to you and write everything down. We'd also planned for every sort of scenario, right from we're really struggling to get close to the goal, what are we going to do and where we are completely overwhelmed. It was a making sure we had a factory who could handle that demand, making sure we'd time-lined everything out and had a little bit of slag, because there's always no matter how prepared you are, if you are talking about physical manufacturing, there is going to be things that you couldn't have possibly have know that's going to push things out a little bit, so just being very prepared.

I think I've seen it probably a lot of times with some of these products that end up on Kickstarter where it becomes apparent that the creators hadn't actually checked … they hadn't even found their factory at that point, so they didn't know whether it could be produced at scale or how much that was going cost and that can definitely get you into problems later on. For us, it was a mantra, it was like, “Yeah, prepare and over prepare before we press launch on the campaign.

Felix: 13 or 14 iterations prior to launching is definitely on the high end of preparedness for a Kickstarter Campaign, because I hear all the time from that are launching on Kickstarter where they are treating it as the starting point, like it's their first iteration or maybe first couple. They are putting it out there and hoping to learn along the way and improve and change the product along the way before it ends and they have to start manufacturing it. Whereas starters start sending out to manufacturers. How did you know that you landed on the right iteration before launching your Kickstarter especially since you went through 13 or 14 already, how did you say “Okay, the 13, this is the 13th one or 14th one.” This one, I don't want to say good enough, but it's ready to go on Kickstarter?

Doug: Yeah, just a sense of these are pretty damn good at this point. From just trying to be as objective as possible and when the negative feedback starts drying up from these people who have been pretty loudly telling you what they think is wrong with it, when that starts to disappear. We'd gone through a stage at that point of sending bags out to a small data crew so they could actually use it over a period of time and see if there's anything else wrong. Would fix any of the little issues from that, yeah by that point we were pretty confident that it was a ready product. Even then, we wanted to leave ourselves open to and provide sometime in the timeline to slightly change the product based on feedback that we received during the campaign. That was something that valuable as well, so we've done that in both campaigns and changed little things.

Felix: I think ideally any entrepreneur that has launched their business, if they had all the time in world, all the funds in the world they would love to continue testing and creating the perfect product before putting it out. I want to talk about your process, because I don't think that much time has elapsed between the very first prototypes and launching your Kickstarters. Tell us about the cycle of going from a new prototype iteration into a bit of tester, to getting their feedback. Now back to the manufacturer that's producing a prototype. How do that entire cycle work and how did you work it so that it could be done for 13, 14 prototypes?

Doug: It was case of us getting ourselves into a position where we didn't have to focus on anything else, we weren't trying to do any other jobs by that point and we were flexible in terms of where we could be. We could essentially just camp out by the factories for as long as it took, which is what we did. Is a case of just devoting all our efforts to that, so taking in the initial prototype which had it made and then … Already from that first travel, we had a bunch of things that we wanted to change for the next sample, take that out to our group of trusted feedback peeps and hear everything from them, write it all down.

We'd lock ourselves away as founders for a couple of days and process all that feedback and think about “Okay, we don't want to end up with the Homer Simpson cast so we have to go through each piece of feedback in terms of whether people will think we should add something or change something on the bag and look at it as against like what's our original vision for this product and would that change be in line with that. If so, note it down as something we wanted to change and other things you discard. Then write that all up and communicate that back to the manufacturer for the next round and just repeat that for months and months and months and months.

Felix: Do you, remember how much time and capital you had to invest to go through all of these iterations before it was ready for kick starter?

Doug: From that part of it, it was probably a year in sample stage I guess and in terms of capital, yeah, tens of thousands not less probably yeah. 100,000 plus potentially and plus our time as well.

Felix: Yeah, that's definitely an investment that shows you are very committed to it and did you ever feel like maybe we're getting too deep into this or let's just launch with what we have? How did you combat those feelings of we've already invested a year of our lives, $100,000. Did you ever feel like let's just go with what we have?

Doug: No, I think we're both fairly perfectionists in the way we do things and we know that we are realistic in the sense that we know that nothing can be absolute … No product can ever be 100% perfect, but this is a level that we were comfortable enough with. Yeah, I think we both had a sense that we were going to basically fix anything that our feedback group were talking about at this point, because we still had the position to d. We hadn't run out of money at that point, maybe we went too far from that conviction of thinking that is hard. It's a good thing to have but it needs to be checked in some way, like otherwise, you'd never ever release anything. I guess we feel as though we've gotten to a good enough point in the way we think about these things. A good balance if we are looking to be a really, really high quality product company.

Felix: Campaign number 2, on Kickstarter, had a lower goal of only $10,000 but raised even more money than the first campaign. This one raised over $500 hundred thousand dollars from 2400 backers. Tell us about your promotion strategy for both of this. Did you guys do any preparation to market and promote the campaigns before they started? How were you able to hit your goal and then breakthrough so successfully for both of these campaigns?

Doug: I guess for the first one we got a bit of help from the people that we had involved in the process, so it was a little of their feedback that went into the bag and that bloody into that … there was a bag that they really wanted as well. The online community that we are part of, the DC, Dynamite Circle, I've a lot of guys in there. They gave us a lot of help in getting the word out. For the second one, what we didn't really … we were basically yeah really focused on product right up until the time we launched and didn't do so much in the promotion side of things. I guess at that point we'd had a lot of word of mouth marketing over the last couple of years and in a sizeable email list by that point. It was quite different to the way we approached it and we really didn't actually do a lot. Just dropped it to the list and I guess had a few tease of videos, cut out from various parts our clip side of video and that was it. It started the title, yeah raised fairly quickly on that second one.

Felix: I can definitely see why a second campaign would be I wouldn't say anything as easy, but at least easier than the first one because you have the PR essentially from the first campaign, you have the email list, you have customers already from that first campaign that you promote your new one too. You also … I was looking at your profile for Kickstarting, you guys have backed 28 campaigns. I think this is the most I've seen for any guest on the podcast as launched on Kickstarter. 20 campaigns that you guys backed on Kickstarter. I guess why did you feel like you had to back that and why did you figure how to back it? What made you guys decide to back 28 other Kickstarter Campaigns.

Doug: I'm not sure it was even a conscious decision. It's just like we talk about stuff that we really love and we think should exist in the world and we are always happy to back it. Sometimes I'm always carrying round a few other like Kickstarter products and things that I'm testing for people. We just love it as a way to bring things into the world that a few years ago just might not have made it, it's a really cool platform?

Felix: There's definitely a tinier community of backers out there, so I can definitely see why you would want to get involved in that community. One thing that really stood out with your Kickstarter Campaigns is the videos. These are … were these produced by in-house or did you guys hire people to help you produce these product videos for your Kickstarter Campaigns?

Doug: In-house, both of the actually. The first one that was … Jimmy deserves much of the credit on the vast majority the creator on both of these videos. Yeah, it was the 2 of us and a photographer friend that we brought to help us for the first one. Then the second one, kind of a similar situation where is it was members of our team that helped us with editing on that one. Jimmy still wrote all the scripts. We had a game of we call it like editing, game of chicken with the editing where increasing the ridiculous things in and wait to see what I would edit out and I just left it all in there, so that's how we ended up with that passage at the very beginning of us dancing on the beach in Peruvian mast.

Felix: I think it was a very hilarious video, anyone out there who is listening should check it out. I think it definitely caught my attention. From the first campaign to the second campaign, did you learn anything about what works with the video, what works with that landing page for a Kickstarter Campaign that you made sure to include in the second campaign?

Doug: Yes, I think we did change the way we went about things too much. I think we feel like it was … we had done a lot of research for the first one, so we felt that most of that could be continued on. I think we started with the cross promotions a little earlier than on the first one. That was when you've got the opportunity to tell your backers about some of the other awesome projects that are happening on Kickstarter at the same time, that's always good. I think they were fairly similar in the way we went about that part of the process for both campaigns.

Felix: Can you talk a little bit more about this cross promotion? Is that something that's done while you are running a campaign or is this after you are about to launch a campaign, you work with another past campaign traders to promote your product? What does cross promotion mean?

Doug: It doesn't happen until you've launched really, because then … The only way usually that you would know about these other Kickstarter Campaigns is because you've both launched. One will send a message to the other and say, “Hey, we think we are both great products that should be helping each other out, how about we do a cross promotion?” We are very particular about that as well, so is actually only a small fraction of people who contact us that we would partner with them in that way. Yeah, when we find something we think is really good and there's been a lot of thought and hard work gone into it from the creators and we will tell other backers about it as well.

Felix: Very cool, I didn't know that there were these process for a cross promotion, but I think it's definitely something that other campaign creators should consider exploring, because again the backers out there is a community of backers. Sometimes they just like backing projects, not necessarily because they are on Kickstarter looking for something specific, but they are looking to just back awesome campaigns, so definitely found ways to get in front of the group of folks. One thing I noticed in one of the campaigns you guys had run is that it says at the very top that a campaign is over but the journey is just getting started to stay in the loop, keep in touch below. Then you have basically a bunch of banners that are linked to your Instagram, your Facebook, to the actual site to buy right away. Basically a bunch of places that they can go to off the Kickstarter page. Do you guys get a lot traffic from people checking out a Kickstarter Campaign that has ended, that then comes to your site?

Doug: There is a reason and I don't think it would be in our top list of referrals, but I guess maybe there is more just after the end of the campaign. It's really a matter of … The Kickstarter Campaign freezes as soon as the campaign closes, so it's just making it easy for anyone who drops on your page after that to find you in your current form. To have a link in there that you actually still control and can change as your main product page changes later on.

Felix: I do think that Kickstarter itself does have a lot essentially SEO juice. If you type in the name of your brand or searching or searching for a different product, sometimes the Kickstarter Campaign is one of the first ones to show up or at least on the first page, so you definitely want to find a way to take that traffic and direct them to like you're saying your current form on your Shopify site or whatever site you are selling your product on. What do you guys have planned for next year? 听众可以从你们那里看到哪些事情？

Doug: As always we are very heavily in product development at the moment, so yes some stuff we are pretty damn excited about coming out at some point. I guess the thing with us is that pretty much everything we've done has been worked on for at least a couple of years and that hasn't really changed. When we feel that it's truly really … we release it. We don't make any promises or even that the products will be released, so we keep pretty quiet about what we're doing, because a lot of the products we've developed in the past, some of them we just don't think they are good enough and we don't release them. The current batch look like they are going to be pretty amazing.

Felix: Very cool, thanks so much Doug, Minaal.com is the website. Anywhere else you recommend the listeners to go and check out if they follow along with what you guys are up to?

道格：不，这是我们通过它发现的。 除了 Kickstarter 之外，这是我们在发布会上销售产品的唯一地方。 是的，这一切都在 Minaal.com 上。

Felix：如果有人想知道任何 Kickstarter 的发布，我相信你会将它广播到你的电子邮件列表中，所以如果你想注册，我认为这可能是与你们保持联系的最佳方式对于任何即将到来的活动。

道格：是的。

菲利克斯：很酷，再次感谢您抽出时间道格。

道格：太好了，谢谢菲利克斯。

Felix：感谢收听 Shopify Masters，这是面向雄心勃勃的企业家的电子商务营销播客。 要立即存储您的故事，请访问 shopify.com/masters 申请延长 30 天免费试用期。